Yeah it was malicious. Dude was messed up at a concert, big deal. The best part of video for me is when crosseyed kicks in he kind of came back to reality. He found some comfort in the song. Not to mention a dude in his situation, as paranoid as he probably was, still noticed people filming him which made it worst. The jam to open up set two could have scared most sober people though. It was sick. Very weak shit and whoever filmed that should be ashamed of themselves.

Bad publicity to the dude, the videographer, the fest, the fans, law enforcement, Phish......etc....etc

@Sprachtor:

The big foul here, imo, occurred when the video was posted. But if not to post it, then why film it?

Cheers.

@bertoletdown

To show friends I guess. From there I am sure some of them probably convinced him it was a good idea to put it on the internet for the world to see.

The positive of this- a very negative reaction from people within the community that will possibly dissuade someone from doing this in the future. People aren't finding it funny.

Sadly, I feel this sort of action is representative of a lot of the current fanbase. A distinction that seems to be becoming more and more important, I think, is the difference between Phish's fanbase and the Phish fan community. An action like this isn't something that would have been cheered on in the Phish fan community of old (think: 90s). And while it is fantastic that a lot of that community is speaking out about this, I fear that a lot of people will still find the video 'high-larious' and think they can score 'h3tty' points by doing the same. Because that's all it's about for a large percentage of the fanbase - looking cool to others. Look back at pictures and videos (I'm thinking specifically of the Rift promotional video) and you'll see very quickly that NOBODY looked cool then, or cared whether or not they did. It was always about the music, first and foremost, the live experience. THAT was the community. Now it's about "cred," as you said, and who can bitch and moan the most. It's not 'custies' vs. 'noobs', because either one can fit in either scene.

Community = about the music, about the experience, about the band, about each other
Fanbase = about themselves, about looking cool, about making the funniest 2nd post, about who can find the newest way to insult one another and talk about the reasons why the band currently 'sucks'.

Ok, just my 2¢ ... getting off my soapbox now.

I didn't see the video, I am glad I didn't. Who would think of recording a fan having a moment with Phish, taking everything in, that is very personal for him. We all have those moments, regardless if we are under the influence or not. How immature. For someone to poke fun at this guy should be ashamed and obviously they haven't had their spiritual, personal moment lost in song with Phish. I hope one day the guy who recorded this respects everyone's enjoyment style and maybe he too will point the camera at the stage and have a moment like everyone else.

hell yes to this article. I can admit that I am slightly new to the world and community of phish, but I have never felt more at home than I do in the crowd. that being said, there are a lot of kids that are around my age that really make a mess of the scene, and really have a lack of respect and understanding of others. it's as if these individuals don't get it, it's about the music. I mean I get it you're at a phish concert, have a good time.. but it's not about the drugs, it's about enjoying listening and watching our band perform. well I'm rambling, good article

I'm reminded of an episode of the Simpsons when Homer states: "Let your freak flag fly!" The phish community that I've known would be embracing and sharing in this type of improvisational behavior. The man is obviously getting deep into the music. How can we judge him. So what if he is acting outside the "normal range" of behavior. The beauty is in the raw creativity.

I love seeing all kinds of weird, intuitive, ritualistic, hoe-down dancing and the phish crowd usually brings it. Don't judge it people, just let the music in and see what happens.

Homer did say "let your freak flag fly", but so did David Crosby about twenty years earlier.

If you're letting it fly in public then be prepared to show the whole world.

i saw the video and the author's comments.. pretty weak. my question..

WHY WERE YOU LOOKING BACK BEHIND YOU AT A DUDE SITTING ON THE LAWN AND NOT AT THE STAGE DURING CROSSEYED?????????? why werent YOU dancing??!?!?!?!?

We live in a society where we document EVERYTHING in our lives. The concession was made in the main post that NO ONE can expect privacy. People take pictures and videos of the things around them. But apparently at a Phish show there are unspoken rules? The individual videotaped was a grown man, who made his own choices. If Miley Cyrus and Michael Phelps can have "supposed" drug related pictures of them posted, this guy can too. It's now a world ruled by the voyeur. You can't pick and choose moments the moments (in public at least) that apply.

I'm sorry, but as many people, if not more, got a kick out of the video as will purport to be disgusted by it. There's no harm in that. More people that the individual behind the camera [gasp] turned around to watch this guy groove.

I think it's funny that you compare the current fanbase to the fanbase of the 90's. It's pretty much the same fanbase. I'm sure if we had camera phones and small digital video cameras that allowed us to easily post stuff like this to YouTube (which also did not exist) in the 90's, we'd see the same thing then as we do now.

It's not current fanbase, it's the nature of the internet and, ultimately, the world we live in. We document everything. We post everything to the internet. If you don't want a video or picture of you wooking out posted to the internet, don't wook out in public.

Now... where's that video? I could use a good laugh.

"If you don't want a video or picture of you wooking out posted to the internet, don't wook out in public."

I find it distasteful to shoot and post the material described above too, but don't expect privacy among thousands at a music festival.

Another thing, raw creativity is just that, nothing else. No additives or preservatives.

$.02

The real issue starts with someone who is more concerned about watching/filming others than with listening to the music and being in the moment.

That's someone who just doesn't get it.

@ericwyman & RunawayJim:

Did you hear that sound? It was the sound of the point soaring right over your head.

I had already conceded your observation about the nature of our digital society and what a person can reasonably expect - i.e. what you do in a crowd may be seen before a much larger crowd on the 'tronz.

But because it's possible doesn't make it right. Had you seen the video you'd likely find it thuddingly unfunny and completely unnecessary, like most others did. Or I dunno, maybe you're incapable of putting yourself in somebody else's shoes.

I'm not trying to censor anybody. I'm trying to get people to think about tradeoffs, and about what kind of atmosphere and environment they want to contribute to at Phish shows - which as I mentioned are places that people go to express themselves and feel a bit freer than they might in their regular lives.

Not that complicated.

i think the issue at hand here is "public". sure, it's a "public" place, but every head knows that we want to keep that shit private! private to those who want to come and get down, not do shitty things like that. i guess i don't consider a festival a public place like a grocery store or a post office. this is a place that we all pay to come to, and need wristbands to enter. once you enter, all should be safe from harrassment. we all have to deal with assholes in the real world every day, and nobody needs big brother watching over their shoulder at a phish show. taking a video for your own personal enjoyment is one thing, throwing it on youtube is just straight shitty.

Damn... very, very well said.

@phisherman - my thoughts exactly. It's like you step into another world inside the Phish bubble, and everyone should be accepted and welcomed with open arms however they want to express themselves, and what happens there stays there and is not ridiculed.

So I got to look both ways at a show now to be sure that my boss doesn't end up seeing the "real me".

Nobody wants this. I'm with Bertoletdown.

Re: 90's vs. current. IMO - The difference between the free spirited gatherings of the 60's, 70's 80's 90's and 00's is respect. in the 60's/70's everyone respected everyone else from the git go. True communial gatherings. One cause, one purpose. That has slowly deteriated to where we are today. It's still a great community, it still has lots of like minded people who will assist one another but...there seems to be a respect problem with a portion of the crowd. The problem is that they don't even know what the word means.

Can you video tape at a show and post someone doing something they shouldn't? Sure can, it's a free country. Should you show a stranger at a Phish show more respect then that? Your answer to that question will let you know what era you're from. Even if your 15 years old, if you get this concept then your "old school" in your ways.

The joke is on the person filming "the dude". "The dude" was off in his own place totally taking the music in; instead of experiencing the music himself, the camerman decided to enjoy the moment with the mockery of another person. People like this who are not there for the music should stay at home in the first place.

If youtube is going to take down a clip of somebody on drugs, shouldn't they take down all the phish video's from 2003-2004 when Trey was making a fool of himself?

Well said.
The Modern Age is one of lots of animosity and the acme of the old "Holier Than Thou" bullshit.....it's lame. But we're Phisheads, we're supposed to be "different". Lets act like it!
C'mon Phans, dont hate on each other. That's lame. That's for old crusties to do.
If some jaded head is giving you shit, walk away. If some noob is crossing the "line", walk away. We're there for the music anyway, right?????
Have some fun on Leg II y'all, wish I could go!

Put down the video cameras, put down the iphones, get off twitter and facebook. Close your eyes, be in the moment, be happy when you see others do the same.

definitely not a fan of any of this taking video of the shows from any aspect so far as I personally don't take pictures while at a show...granted I am a huge fan of what some of these guys who shoot hd video and drop the sbd recordings on top of...in the end all of this affects ticket sales in my opinion...anyway...if you wanted to see it you should have been there...

is unrealistic for anyone to adopt that way of thinking so scratch that...

but I did come in to say that people who expect there to be ethics in the way people behave online are obviously blind to reality...

The voyeur in me enjoyed watching the video but it was more along the lines of being stoked that this guy was having a blast in his head and I was glad to see him get his freak on. I found myself grooving with him, not laughing at him. That said, posting without the dude's knowledge and consent is definitely wrong. Especially if he had no idea he was being filmed.

Fully participating in a Phish show is a deviant behavior in itself to most of the world (try going to almost any rock concert outside the jam scene and *gasp* standing up for the whole show). I don't buy the "why weren't these people facing the stage and rocking out instead of filming" thing because the festival experience is about all aspects of it and even at regular Phish shows I have gone away from looking at the stage to wander, people watch, whatever. I am not defending their actions but railing against these kids because they aren't experiencing the show the way someone else would is just a waste of breath IMHO.

I personally would never film something like this or post it to the interwebz but then again I also probably wouldn't lose my mind like that guy did either and if I did that in public, I wouldn't be surprised in this day and age that someone caught it on camera. These kids deserve a talking to about privacy and potential risks of posting something like this and if they don't understand it, they should be fed large doses of LSD and then followed around by a camera crew.

I had never registered a user name for this site until now, and I did it because I wanted to give a huge tip of the cap to the author for this excellent post.

If you ask me, you shouldn't even WATCH someone dancing, spinning, head-bobbing, staring in stunned silence -- getting off to music in any way -- much less record it on video. And you CERTAINLY shouldn't broadcast that video to the world. That's just an unspoken agreement among humans, not to mention the Phish community. The old saying "dance like no one is watching" exists for a reason. Nothing feels better than dancing like no one's watching, especially at a Phish show. It feels like surrender. Not to sound all new-agey, but it truly feels like becoming one with the music. And if people have to look around to see if they're being watched, much less RECORDED, they'll never be able to let it loose and experience the euphoric bliss of that surrender. So ... if you've ever danced like no one's watching, and you know how great that feels ... THEN DON'T WATCH OTHER PEOPLE DANCE. Give them the same courtesy you want from them.

Everyone who is saying "This is the world we live in, he made his choice, he can't expect privacy, etc etc ..." Obviously we all know that, including the author of this post. The point is not what people are allowed to do. The point is that this community is special, and there's a certain code we all observe (or SHOULD observe) so we can all continue to have the special experience that draws us back time after time. The author is not saying it's not allowed, he's saying it's fucking reprehensible and the rest of us should do everything we can to stop it, especially if we're at a show and see it happening.

Those who say this is a symptom of the new era, I disagree. I was there in the 90s and there were douchebags then. If anything, I think the fact that Phish is somewhat declining in popularity and draws smaller crowds for the most part has made it more tolerable than the talkative, douchey crowds of the late 90s -- who were just there because they heard they could do drugs. I think a lot of that faction has gravitated to the Bonnaroos of the world because they can do the same thing while seeing Kanye West or whatever the fuck.

tl;dr: Great, great post, couldn't agree more. And let me also say that everyone responsible for the content and upkeep of this site, you are all amazing. This is, as fan polls have shown, by far and away the best Phish resource around. Thank you so much.

@walstib said:

Re: 90's vs. current. IMO - The difference between the free spirited gatherings of the 60's, 70's 80's 90's and 00's is respect. in the 60's/70's everyone respected everyone else from the git go. True communial gatherings. One cause, one purpose. That has slowly deteriated to where we are today. It's still a great community, it still has lots of like minded people who will assist one another but...there seems to be a respect problem with a portion of the crowd. The problem is that they don't even know what the word means.

I don't know about you, but SBIX was very much a communal gathering of people all there for 1 purpose. BTW- I think there are pics of a woman totally fucked up on drugs from the RV lot. When you do shit like that, you deserve whatever you get.

I haven't seen the video in question, but I have seen the video of the totally spun dude from Coachella trying to put his flips flops on, taking about 4 minutes. It's funny shit. I'm might be a heartless asshole, but if you get that spun in public, you deserve the world to laugh at you wooking out. From what it sounds like, the video in question is nothing like the one I'm talking about, but I will never know.

And if you want to talk about decency, is it ok to film someone wooking out if they're invading your personal space, getting all up in your face with their ridiculous dancing because they can't control themselves? Frankly, I say take all the video you want and post it all over the web. Maybe that'll make them think twice about taking too many drugs.

Oh, and for the record, I am not really a heartless dude. I just think there's a time and a place for everything. Wooking out in a crowd of 30k is not the place to wook out.

This is a tough one for me, because I am of the mind that we must all adapt to the new realities of the information age we live in; realities that come with major benefits as well as major downsides.

For one, I have benefited from fans using their cell phones to live stream shows on Hoodstream.

However, this trend disturbs me. I think the OP correctly characterizes this debate as an ethical one and I believe recording someone who is peacefully pursuing happiness and posting it on the internet is unethical. Or, to put it more precisely, this is a "dick move".

Sure, it's legal. It's not illegal to be a total asshole. But I don't want complete strangers posting videos of me on YouTube. Whether I'm drinking a cup of coffee at Blue Bottle, playing at the park with my kids or enjoying a psychedelic experience at Phish.

@RunawayJim: I completely relate to the experience of being around fans who have taken way too many drugs and are ruining the experience for others. For those fans, I see having their terrible behavior posted on the Internet as a type of justice. But I think you'll agree that the type of behavior we're talking about is not of this nature.

For the same reason people took videos of things before youtube: to watch them at home.

@bertoletdown said:

@Sprachtor:

The big foul here, imo, occurred when the video was posted. But if not to post it, then why film it?

Cheers.

You are a vigilante monkey. Some guy took too much acid? Try and help the guy out. It's human nature to help others.

To the chicken shit twerp that filmed the dude peaking: You suck. You will never gain the trust of others and if perchance you do it will be unfounded. Remember the golden rule: Treat others as you would have them treat you.

I (gladly) was unable to see this video, though even reading about this ridiculous, unnecessary documentation of a harmless phan's behavior made me quite melancholy.

I am sixteen years old, still a junior in high school, and I cannot help but draw a bold, blatant parallel between this shameless, cowardly mockery and the behavior of the social "ruling class" at my high school. Unfortunately, it seems to be an intrinsic feature of humans to want to knock others down for a short-lived ego boost, for one's sick, malicious pleasure, or in the case of many Phish fans, to get a "d00d that v1d30 i$ BR0t4LLY $3ck, brahh," from their equally pretentious friends.

I used to be picked on incessantly in school. It became a constant occurrence, and escalated to the point where I began to believe what the mockers would say about me. Just as the writer of this article points out, it is absolutely impossible to understand or even infer about the circumstances of another person, especially if you merely mock them without attempting to get to know them.

When I was introduced to Phish several years ago, I seriously admired the juxtaposition between the accepting, judgeless community that Phish had built and the unbearably cruel hierarchy that my peers had built in school. My first show was an enlightening escape, as I saw plenty of, well... "unorthodox" people that were gladly accepted by the community.

Is this kind of acceptance dwindling? I feel like every time I am inundated with another barrage of "goddamn w00k" tweets, we lose a little more of the glorious community aspect of Phish that makes the band so much more magnetic than any other band.

I am sorry I wrote so much. This just peeved me.

I agree with the original author and most of you. We've all been there and at times gotten a little too out there but luckily for most of us there was a good soul or a buddy in the crowd to help us thru the time and maybe even offer a bottle of water or 5. I love the folks that tape videos of shows and put them on youtube and I must say I've even watched some people in some pretty ugly predicaments crawling around on the ground but from now on I'm only going to watch the video's of the GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH and the occasional cop mock video.......love you all.

"....everyone should be accepted and welcomed with open arms however they want to express themselves, and what happens there stays there...."

This ain't Vegas, baby.. OR A PERFECT WORLD.

I'd be happy if they banned all cameras at shows. No more glowing screens to impede my view.

Hey! They should make an area for people who don't care about actully watching the show. They could call it "outside".

I'm pretty sure hating wooks has always been part of the scene... at least as long as there have been wooks in the scene.

Well said, @bertoletdown, and hat's off for generating a *mostly* intelligent discussion about community in the digital age.

"Keep what's important, and know who's your friend..."

@RunawayJim Loose the hate, brother. I love wooks. Don't get me wrong, I like to hang with straight people like yourself too, but lets be honest, wooks are an integral part of the scene. Let yourself be free.

This is very interesting to me bc I had a conversation on this exact subject on the drive up to the fest. As much as Phish shows are the place I feel most welcome to be me...aside from inside my home...I also know that in this day and age there is a chance that some how, some way pics or videos of me may pop up.

I won't be running for president so I don't censor myself a lot but I do censor myself to some degree. Knowing that in a crowd of 30,000+ people, most of which are altered in some way, the crazier I act the more likely I am to be filmed. It is sick! It isn't right! But unfortunately it is something one has to take into consideration.

That being said, although I didn't see the video, it sounds like the guy in the video wasn't doing anything crazy. Sounds like he was keeping to himself and quietly enjoying the music in his minds eye. If he were naked, acting like a lion, etc then his filter would obviously be totally off and it would be naive for him to think his chance of being video taped would be low. But he wasn't doing that. It's sad that he couldn't depend on the community to keep him safe!

Although many employers might not care, if the man were a teacher, policeman, fireman, therapist, MD, nurse, lawyer, clergyman, etc this could easily have turned into a country wide scandal likely to be shown on the national nightly news! So this definitely could of become a huge issue for him personally. When you work in one of these professions u r constantly being watched and are held to a standard, that although unrealistic, is expected and demanded by society! It's one of the biggest reasons why I left my profession. It is also the reason that while working in such profession I had to keep my love for Phish secret. Given that Phish is such a huge part of my life it was a lot like living two lives. It sucked!

Kudos for this article! Kudos to the fan base who is outraged over this, willing to speak out, and willing to do their part to help keep their fellow Phish heads safe! And a huge kudos to YouTube for pulling the video! My only question is what caused them to pull the video? Who complained?

To answer the question about "if they are pulling videos of people doing drugs....pull the video of Trey...." the answer to that, although u may not agree, is public people (ie Trey) do not share the same assumption of privacy (especially while performing) that the ordinary public does.

When we went to the Fest 8 movie I wondered how, or if, Phish was going to protect their fans from this exact thing...except it would of been on a much bigger scale. I was very impressed that they were able to keep their fans' "recreational activities" out of the movie. It was obvious that they worked hard to make sure everyone was protected. I'm sure there were stretches of film that they wanted to use but didn't bc someone in the shot was identifiable and obviously "recreating!" They are the ones making a living off all of this...so if they can protect us then without a doubt we should be able to protect one another!

If we could just do these two simple things shit like this would never happen: 1) Do unto others as you would have them do unto you! And if you'd be ok with someone doing it to you ask yourself....would you be ok with someone doing it to your Mother, Sister, Brother, spouse, etc.? Chances are if there is even a question in your mind then the answer is DON'T DO IT! 2)Never make a descision to post a video or picture until the next morning &/or when you are sober! What seemed like a good choice at the time may be obviously a really bad choice later. It's like drunk dialing for "the year two thousand" (a la Conan O'Brien)

I'm totally with OP @bertoletdown and others who have agreed, but wanted to point out for those who didn't see the video before it was taken down that (1) it was taken with a telephoto lens from a distance, (2) the subject wasn't a "wook" in appearance or doing crazy tripped out potentially unsafe to others things in "a crowd of 30000".

He was sitting on the grass in an uncrowded area, "dancing" by bopping his head, moving his hands and sticking out his tongue like a lizard as Crosseyed & Painless played, but there was no proof other than the snarky comments of the YouTube poster, that he was on LSD or similar drugs. It was pretty normal and tame, except for some bullies/asshat's deciding to film it and put it on YouTube.

It was plain and simple an invasion of privacy, in the sense that people do expect to go to a Phish show, dance like no one's looking and not turn up on YouTube under some derogatory titled video.

@mpike "It's sad that he couldn't depend on the community to keep him safe!"

^^ THIS.

I just want to state that, for the record, I don't condone filming people who are minding their own business. I never saw the video, and I probably wouldn't even understand the point of the video or why someone filmed this dude other than to be an ass.

That said, we live in a very "connected" world. If you don't want yourself to end up on the internet, then don't do anything out of the ordinary in public (and that includes Phish shows, which are very much public). It's similar to the web. If you don't want people to see it, don't put it there to begin with.

@mpike: There is no assumption of privacy for anyone, including regular folks, like you and me, when one is in public. That includes a Phish show. Sure, Trey, being a celebrity, has no assumption of privacy when he's performing, but if you're out in public, people have a right to take a picture of you. They don't have a right to use your likeness to make money (at least not without your permission), but they do have a right to take a picture or video.

We need to work harder to keep the Golden (age?) Rule evident at shows. I don't want my horrible dancing at a phish show broadcast to the world, so I wouldn't do that to anyone else. The blurry line comes from people thinking that a place where the culture affords a greater freedom of personal expression equals greater freedom to step on someone's toes as well. It does not.
The comment about keeping our thing 'private' was interesting, especially in the context of that WSJ article about concert security. I'm sure most people, like me, laugh with glee when a newspaper incorrectly describes the band, the shows or the scene. The journal article said:

"In addition, the band's recent four-year hiatus dissipated a population of fans who followed the group everywhere. That means fewer homegrown merchants—and drug dealers—who lived off the tour economy."

Really? I guess the reporter didn't go to sbix, where shakedown was as huge as ever, and it wasn't particularly hard to get whatever party favor you were interested in. But that's a good thing - who wants extra scrutiny in the lots? The truth is that the culture of freedom that we notice at phish shows is partially allowed to remain due to Phish's relative obscurity. Filming tripketeers doesn't help. If someone's attempting to blow up our spot via youtube just for yucks, the best we can do is make sure people doing it in the future know it's not cool. or wait until those blurry-suits from 'a scanner darkly' are invented, which would both protect identities and look awesome at a show

this issue really has little to do with privacy expectations, drugs, or eras. it has to do with holding ourselves to a higher standard. how often do you pride yourself on being a nicer person, at a festival/show or in normal life, and attribute it to phish? how often do you wish that other people could experience the same love, generosity, and community that we experience every tour? yes, we all have the ability to take photos and videos (also, think of sites/albums like passed out wookies on facebook). and yes some expectations to should be made that you could be subject to someone elses camera. but it doesnt have to be that way. take those same thoughts of love and compassion and leave people be. be the bigger person and dont succumb to the opportunity to film, use the opportunity to enjoy the fact that someone else is enjoying their time. otherwise youre just a hypocrite who likes things nice only when its going well for you.

If you take the assumption of drug use out of the equation and YouTube never removes it, because it's just some guy grooving away, then what? It's still malicious? Because why?

@zappaforprez said:

If youtube is going to take down a clip of somebody on drugs, shouldn't they take down all the phish video's from 2003-2004 when Trey was making a fool of himself?

the guy was hurtin' bro. you ever have an addiction? its no joke. deeper still, '03-'04 rules.

@ericwyman said:

If you take the assumption of drug use out of the equation and YouTube never removes it, because it's just some guy grooving away, then what? It's still malicious? Because why?

Because I would hate to think the next time I'm closing my eyes and trying to wrap my around the music, while my body parts flail in whatever totally awkward way they do, that I'm not going to wake up and find people laughing at me on youtube.

I personnaly would laugh at myself but some other person may then be subject to local ridicule or harassment (say a young person getting teased about it at school), that would cause them pain, hence making the act malicious.

For every 1000 phish phans there is about 3 of them who should be at home not the show.... The guy taking the video should of been at home leaving the one's who really enjoy the flow alone.......

@ericwyman said:

If you take the assumption of drug use out of the equation and YouTube never removes it, because it's just some guy grooving away, then what? It's still malicious? Because why?

because i would be fired for being caught dancing like that. looking like im tripping, whether i am or not, would not be tolerated in my workplace. if phish isnt a place to be free and enjoy yourself (responsibly i might add) then where is?

i hold these standards of my own voyeuristic behavior the same for anyone, celebrity (as you referenced above) or phish fan. i just hope others will do the same. i do appreciate you playing devils advocate in this and speaking valid points. i just hope 'the community' can be better than that kind of behavior. perhaps its naive or idealistic. but i think it is, or should be, another one of the great things that sets phish shows and festivals apart from others.

yeah, i think we are getting away from the point. many people think along the lines of our current legal system, which is flawed in its essense. this sounds like the jury for the OJ or Casey Anthony case, trying to prove the action was right because of reasonable doubt. we can all come up with reasons why this is acceptable within some strain of logic, but it does come back to the golden (age) rule. yes, we have the "right" to do things that might not be "right", like taking advantage of someone who is high and at a show or, for instance, a major corporation not paying taxes due to loopholes. it's just stupid. it is an invasion of privacy, and i agree with the last poster that said this person just doesn't belong at the show. nothing to do with age (golden) or when they first saw phish, they just don't get it.

All of you talking about the "right" to take someone's picture would be well served to remember the "right" of the person next to you to talk through the whole show. There are l

^^^Sorry accidentally tapped "Add.".

To finish the thought, there are plenty of rights we all have that we choose nit to exercise. It's common courtesy.

I don't take umbrage with the premise of the discussion here, I just disagree from a "much ado about nothing" standpoint more than anything.

But over the last week and year, ive seen a lot of judgement for who should/shouldn't be at the show and who's opinions count/don't count and who's real/fake. And it's kind of abundant for a discussion and community based on freedom of expression and inclusion. Disagreement on a topic is healthy but drawing the guillotine on people you disagree with seems rash.

totally agree bro. this bullshit has to stop there's not one of us out there that hasn't been out of our tree and the fact that you could wind up on youtube at a shoow is a disgrace to the community

To sum up this entire thing...

We should all be nice.

Some of us aren't.

@play_it_leo89 said:

Sadly, I feel this sort of action is representative of a lot of the current fanbase. A distinction that seems to be becoming more and more important, I think, is the difference between Phish's fanbase and the Phish fan community. An action like this isn't something that would have been cheered on in the Phish fan community of old (think: 90s). And while it is fantastic that a lot of that community is speaking out about this, I fear that a lot of people will still find the video 'high-larious' and think they can score 'h3tty' points by doing the same. Because that's all it's about for a large percentage of the fanbase - looking cool to others. Look back at pictures and videos (I'm thinking specifically of the Rift promotional video) and you'll see very quickly that NOBODY looked cool then, or cared whether or not they did. It was always about the music, first and foremost, the live experience. THAT was the community. Now it's about "cred," as you said, and who can bitch and moan the most. It's not 'custies' vs. 'noobs', because either one can fit in either scene.

Community = about the music, about the experience, about the band, about each other
Fanbase = about themselves, about looking cool, about making the funniest 2nd post, about who can find the newest way to insult one another and talk about the reasons why the band currently 'sucks'.

Ok, just my 2� ... getting off my soapbox now.

A good corollary to this is the increasing number of young women who are literally wearing 200$ sun dresses to shows. I certainly don't remember that in the 90s.

@SlavePhan said:

A good corollary to this is the increasing number of young women who are literally wearing 200$ sun dresses to shows. I certainly don't remember that in the 90s.

I don't remember that in the 3.0 period either. Women have always worn sun dresses to shows. I don't think any of them are paying $200 for them. But that's besides the point. What was described above as "fanbase" describes PT... which has been around for quite some time. Heck, it could also describe RMP in its later days.

@robbiephan said:

because i would be fired for being caught dancing like that. looking like im tripping, whether i am or not, would not be tolerated in my workplace. if phish isnt a place to be free and enjoy yourself (responsibly i might add) then where is?

You'd get fired for enjoying yourself clean and sober outside of work, not representing your job just because you dance at a concert? I hope I never have a job like that (in fact, I know I won't).

Phish is a place to be free and enjoy yourself. No one is stopping you. But if you're that worried about a video of you just dancing being put on the web, maybe you should only dance to Phish in the privacy of your own home.

@heyitsmejenni said:

@ericwyman said: [quote]
Also, I think a lot of people in the scene these days could use a crash course in, "disagreeing is not a personal attack/doesn't have to evolve into a personal attack" The guys and gals of the Phish scene are good looking, smart people who, for the most part, are good at the Phish. If I don't like a Tweezer that you felt was life changing, it's ok. It in no way invalidates your experience just because I tweeted "stink bomb" from couch tour.

This a societal problem. Politicians show the worst of it by calling one another nazi's, socialists, communists, baby killers, and other inflammatory names when clearly whatever that person is doing isn't in the realm of any of those things. Its spead everywhere that disagreements automatically mean hate and anger. Not conforming to others ideas is not the same as hating them. Proportion has been lost in societal disagreements. Its a shame.

@slavephan

That comment is exactly what I'm talking about. Girls in $200 sundresses are not as cool as girls in vintage salvation army dress? This scene isn't exclusive.

@RunawayJim said:

@robbiephan said:

because i would be fired for being caught dancing like that. looking like im tripping, whether i am or not, would not be tolerated in my workplace. if phish isnt a place to be free and enjoy yourself (responsibly i might add) then where is?

You'd get fired for enjoying yourself clean and sober outside of work, not representing your job just because you dance at a concert? I hope I never have a job like that (in fact, I know I won't).

Phish is a place to be free and enjoy yourself. No one is stopping you. But if you're that worried about a video of you just dancing being put on the web, maybe you should only dance to Phish in the privacy of your own home.

you couldnt have missed my point more. its not about being able to enjoy something sober or not or representing my company or not. its about being caught on video looking like im out of my mind on any multitude of drugs. you didnt even see the video so your arguments hold little merit with me. im not worried about it because i dont behave like that. but i feel for the people who fall victim to it in our supposedly free and understanding community.

the merits of the self-created 'community' are one thing, but actions like these seem to undermine what is commonly accepted behaviors of goodwill.

@RunawayJim said:

You'd get fired for enjoying yourself clean and sober outside of work, not representing your job just because you dance at a concert? I hope I never have a job like that (in fact, I know I won't).

Ha... hetty.

@robbiephan said:

you couldnt have missed my point more. its not about being able to enjoy something sober or not or representing my company or not. its about being caught on video looking like im out of my mind on any multitude of drugs. you didnt even see the video so your arguments hold little merit with me. im not worried about it because i dont behave like that. but i feel for the people who fall victim to it in our supposedly free and understanding community.

the merits of the self-created 'community' are one thing, but actions like these seem to undermine what is commonly accepted behaviors of goodwill.

I did not see this specific video, but I have had many a chuckle at other videos of people drunk or high doing stupid shit (the famous Coachella dude trying to put on his flip flops, for example). Based on what I've heard about this video, it's just fucked up that someone used a telephoto lens to shoot a video of a guy more or less just sitting there. It's one thing to grab a video of a guy right in front of you, but a completely different thing to do it from afar. That's just weird and creepy.

Regardless, I don't think these actions undermine anything. We welcome everyone, even those with video-taking fetishes. I also doubt anyone would lose their job over a video of them dancing at a concert unless the video shows them smoking a bowl or dropping acid or some other illicit activity (in which case, you are doing something that's against the law).

@RunawayJim said:

@walstib said:

Re: 90's vs. current. IMO - The difference between the free spirited gatherings of the 60's, 70's 80's 90's and 00's is respect. in the 60's/70's everyone respected everyone else from the git go. True communial gatherings. One cause, one purpose. That has slowly deteriated to where we are today. It's still a great community, it still has lots of like minded people who will assist one another but...there seems to be a respect problem with a portion of the crowd. The problem is that they don't even know what the word means.

I don't know about you, but SBIX was very much a communal gathering of people all there for 1 purpose. BTW- I think there are pics of a woman totally fucked up on drugs from the RV lot. When you do shit like that, you deserve whatever you get.

I haven't seen the video in question, but I have seen the video of the totally spun dude from Coachella trying to put his flips flops on, taking about 4 minutes. It's funny shit. I'm might be a heartless asshole, but if you get that spun in public, you deserve the world to laugh at you wooking out. From what it sounds like, the video in question is nothing like the one I'm talking about, but I will never know.

And if you want to talk about decency, is it ok to film someone wooking out if they're invading your personal space, getting all up in your face with their ridiculous dancing because they can't control themselves? Frankly, I say take all the video you want and post it all over the web. Maybe that'll make them think twice about taking too many drugs.

TOTALLY LAME PUTTING THAT ON YOUTUBE.... HONESTLY, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT WHEN DOING THIS... UMMM, THERE IS A BAND PLAYING. SOME DUDE CAME AND STOOD RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, AND PULLED OUT HIS PHONE TO TEXT.... ????? DUDE YOU WANT TO DANCE, COOL.... USING A PHONE, HOW NEEDY ARE YOU. UNFORT THAT IS WHAT MANY SLEF OBSESSED PEOPLE / FANS ARE LIKE NOW... HELL, I DON;T EVEN OWN A PHONE.... JUST DO YOUR THING AND LET OTHER BE MAN @play_it_leo89 said:

Sadly, I feel this sort of action is representative of a lot of the current fanbase. A distinction that seems to be becoming more and more important, I think, is the difference between Phish's fanbase and the Phish fan community. An action like this isn't something that would have been cheered on in the Phish fan community of old (think: 90s). And while it is fantastic that a lot of that community is speaking out about this, I fear that a lot of people will still find the video 'high-larious' and think they can score 'h3tty' points by doing the same. Because that's all it's about for a large percentage of the fanbase - looking cool to others. Look back at pictures and videos (I'm thinking specifically of the Rift promotional video) and you'll see very quickly that NOBODY looked cool then, or cared whether or not they did. It was always about the music, first and foremost, the live experience. THAT was the community. Now it's about "cred," as you said, and who can bitch and moan the most. It's not 'custies' vs. 'noobs', because either one can fit in either scene.

Community = about the music, about the experience, about the band, about each other
Fanbase = about themselves, about looking cool, about making the funniest 2nd post, about who can find the newest way to insult one another and talk about the reasons why the band currently 'sucks'.

Ok, just my 2� ... getting off my soapbox now.

Thankfully I had not seen nor heard about that video. I feel like that is a real shame that somebody would stoop so low. We are all brothers and sisters and we should care for each other accordingly. Do unto others and you would have them do unto you.

:::drops two coins:::

@fee74 said:

TOTALLY LAME PUTTING THAT ON YOUTUBE.... HONESTLY, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT WHEN DOING THIS... UMMM, THERE IS A BAND PLAYING. SOME DUDE CAME AND STOOD RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, AND PULLED OUT HIS PHONE TO TEXT.... ????? DUDE YOU WANT TO DANCE, COOL.... USING A PHONE, HOW NEEDY ARE YOU. UNFORT THAT IS WHAT MANY SLEF OBSESSED PEOPLE / FANS ARE LIKE NOW... HELL, I DON;T EVEN OWN A PHONE.... JUST DO YOUR THING AND LET OTHER BE MAN.

Are you saying that I'm self-obsessed because I tweet, text, and post to Facebook from shows? How about YEMBlog? They have a live-tweeter at EVERY show, tweeting during EVERY song. Perhaps all of us who like to do this should be put in a box in the back?

How awesome of you to not own a phone. Do you want a medal for that? Some of us like to share the experience with others who cannot be at the show. Does my quick texting or tweeting get in the way of you having fun? I don't think so. I'm not telling you to stop dancing. So don't tell me to stop tweeting.

Hey heyitsmejenni let me know if you wanna hang out sometime.

I enjoyed this blog post and the many thoughtful responses. I have to admit...I am a hyprocrite. I definitely don't like the practice of people filming others (especially in this case: no destruction, fighting, harm to property, or anything other than a guy enjoying himself) but then again, I will periodically pass a link along or RT something. This blog post will make me think harder about that the next time. Already happened to me once where I tweeted a link to a YT video that in retrospect I really wish that I hadn't.

Pretty simple: Do unto others..... Golden Rule.

@me_n_harpua said:

this bullshit has to stop there's not one of us out there that hasn't been out of our tree and the fact that you could wind up on youtube at a shoow is a disgrace to the community

::raises hand::

Me. I've never once "been out of (my) tree"

@RunawayJim said:

Are you saying that I'm self-obsessed because I tweet, text, and post to Facebook from shows? How about YEMBlog? They have a live-tweeter at EVERY show, tweeting during EVERY song. Perhaps all of us who like to do this should be put in a box in the back?

That sounds great to me.

jk, but I really can't understand people who want to spend the show doing this. Totally baffles me, but hey, to each their own. I have had people next to me at shows whose obsession with their device was a total drag to everyone around them, for sure. Some discreet use is fine, but some people do take it too far and it becomes a distraction for those around them.

I don't know about you, but when I'm at a show it makes a big difference to my experience whether the people surrounding me are "in the moment" and paying attention, vs focused on socializing with their friends, collecting glowsticks, watching and commenting on what other people are doing, tapping away on their phones, etc. I always just try to find an area where the focus is on the right place and the show goes much better for me.

List of things that ruin my experience.

People who crowd into rows when security kicks them out of aisle
People who wave their friends into said row without space available
Pukers
Beer spillers
Anyone who consistently hits/bumps/nudges because his "dancing" is out of control
That "foul plastic smell"
Talkers
Shouters
Conversationalists

The use of technology and electronic devices is not an issue.

"got what they deserved": a phrase that always marks the user as an ass.

always.

People are just mean. The video is just mean. Poor dude wasn't bothering anyone. I think it says alot about the crowd these days and people in general. People are selfish a******s who only think about themselves. It is reflected in Phish crowds and every other type of crowd. When did it become cool to make fun of and laugh at people?

Instead of "cool", I should have said when did it become acceptable to make fun and laugh at people? I know there have always been those types of people, but now it just seems so acceptable.

@ericwyman said:

List of things that ruin my experience.

People who crowd into rows when security kicks them out of aisle
People who wave their friends into said row without space available
Pukers
Beer spillers
Anyone who consistently hits/bumps/nudges because his "dancing" is out of control
That "foul plastic smell"
Talkers
Shouters
Conversationalists

The use of technology and electronic devices is not an issue.

......for you.
to me, the proliferation of these glowing screens in my field of vision, and the growing number of people who are more focused on their screens than the stage, is an issue, along with all those other things. And don't get me wrong, I'm not about telling people what to do or not to do, but I will always insist that the quality of attention brought to the show by each and every audience member has an impact on the show. Thankfully the majority of Phish audience members are there because they love the music.

But to each their own.

While there are many annoyances, unless someone is really bumping into me or talking really loudly, I've had no real difficulty in ignoring all that and just paying attention to the show. Phish shouldn't have that much trouble keeping my attention from that stuff-and they don't. The music is usually loud enough (and I wear earplugs) to drown extraneous noises out and I often close my eyes to when I listen anyway.

Not sure what this has to do with youtube. I'm just saying'.

And glowsticks and cigarettes and the list goes on.

There's a lot of things that people think should or should not be happening. If we're supposed to live and let live we might better served to quit perseverating on the issue.

Heck, I saw Pink Floyd once (late 90's?) and I was bothered by some guy in front of me who wore gloves with the fingers cut off, presumably so he could rock harder.

Do we even need to discuss people who sing along too loudly?

Might I also add that this couch tour everyone is so fond of doesn't happen without the proliferation of these glowing screens. Nor YEMblog updates or livephish an hour after the show.

@charliefogg that's just crossing a line. Gloves if absolutely necessary must always have the fingers enclosed!!!!!

I throughly enjoyed Phish's performance at Superball, but I was consistently made uncomfortable by the constant stream of judgement being passed. I had to listen to people in, around and nearby by my camp getting in each others faces or making fun of someone for being intoxicated or sleeping (welll... passed out). It was extremely upsetting for me as I had my first show in 2009 and would hate to think that the community had always been so judgemental and negative.

There's little if any debate that posting such a video, which I haven't seen, is malicious. I believe that to behave maliciously is itself juvenile. Setting that aside, I believe that the whole Youtube, iphone, txt messg, ADD (there I said it) culture is quite juvenile, and again it is my belief that having a social/musical experience turn into a spiritual one is perhaps the most important thing an adult can do. I know this is true of me: it's why I see concerts, not just Phish, but especially Phish (for me). Enjoying these spiritual experiences, whether high or not, sometimes feels like all I have, and I'd bet I'm not alone in saying that. Every time an alleged adult behaves like a child in a place made for adults to grow spiritually it makes me sad, and I really hope these children can find their thrill of the month elsewhere, like a Kings of Leon show.

@phrederick

Spare me your sanctimonious rant. Spiritual yadda yadda, barf. How about you do a little more judging. Adults exhibiting childish behavior?

I have tweeted for YEMblog in the past and enjoyed the experience. Judging by the reaction, others have as well. I'm sorry that my use of technology to document my experience isn't fucking metaphysical enough for you. It's my journal and how I remember MY experience. I'm listening to music not taking the sacrament.

I think we're getting way off topic here. Yes, there are many things people do at Phish shows that are annoying to some and not others. I could make my own list that many here would agree with and others not.

I am an advocate of the use of technology to share personal experiences with others. Sometimes I have to stare at someone's ugly iPhone screen when I really want to see CK5's composition. I suppose that's just the way it goes. There are worse annoyances to me at a Phish show, but I understand that for some this is a more grievous offense.

I do feel, however, that a line is crossed when a complete stranger posts a video of me to the Internet. I believe that, once we get beyond this tit for tat debate, that most of you agree.

For those that don't, I would ask you how you would feel if you (or your spouses or kids) showed up in random-stranger videos on YouTube? Would that creep you out? Would you feel in some way violated? Or are you fine with strangers following you around with cameras? If so, I hope you at least acknowledge that you are in the minority here.

Having thoroughly beat this dead horse, let's please try to treat each other with more respect. We're all attend Phish shows because we share at least one thing in common. Perhaps we can do our best to overlook our differences for the sake of the band and scene we are all a part of.

this really has nothing to do with you tube or the internet or anything in "today's society"...it has to do with a principal as old as time...

do unto others as you would have other do unto you...

ask yourself, before you do anything, would i want someone to do this to me...and if your answer is no...then don't do it...if it is "i wouldn't care"...still don't do it...because another persons dignity is not yours to take...

mean people suck! and be at phish show for phish...if you want to watch freaks...sit on the boardwalk...it's free...and let someone who gets it watch phish...or any band for that matter...

@RunawayJim said:

Oh, and for the record, I am not really a heartless dude. I just think there's a time and a place for everything. Wooking out in a crowd of 30k is not the place to wook out.

Runaway "Slim" Jim your not a heartless dude, your a heartless douche! Who the fuck wants people to video tape them at a show? Phish shows are sacred to many of us both musically and spiritually. No one has the right to infringe on our space without permission. That dick who posted that video is a piece of crap plain and simple. And for you to propagate such disgusting acts make you just as guilty. Hey Jim if you want a good laugh try filming me at the next show. It's going to be hilarious when I drop 10 hooks on your face. It's going to be even funnier watching you spit out chicklets from that ugly mug of yours. Oh I know violence is unruly, disgusting and counterintuitiv to the spirit of Phish, but in special circumstances force must be used to protect those things we charish the most. See you in Colorado Jimmy boy!

@play_it_leo89 said:

Sadly, I feel this sort of action is representative of a lot of the current fanbase. A distinction that seems to be becoming more and more important, I think, is the difference between Phish's fanbase and the Phish fan community. An action like this isn't something that would have been cheered on in the Phish fan community of old (think: 90s). And while it is fantastic that a lot of that community is speaking out about this, I fear that a lot of people will still find the video 'high-larious' and think they can score 'h3tty' points by doing the same. Because that's all it's about for a large percentage of the fanbase - looking cool to others. Look back at pictures and videos (I'm thinking specifically of the Rift promotional video) and you'll see very quickly that NOBODY looked cool then, or cared whether or not they did. It was always about the music, first and foremost, the live experience. THAT was the community. Now it's about "cred," as you said, and who can bitch and moan the most. It's not 'custies' vs. 'noobs', because either one can fit in either scene.

Community = about the music, about the experience, about the band, about each other
Fanbase = about themselves, about looking cool, about making the funniest 2nd post, about who can find the newest way to insult one another and talk about the reasons why the band currently 'sucks'.

Ok, just my 2� ... getting off my soapbox now.

@play_it_leo89 said:

Sadly, I feel this sort of action is representative of a lot of the current fanbase. A distinction that seems to be becoming more and more important, I think, is the difference between Phish's fanbase and the Phish fan community. An action like this isn't something that would have been cheered on in the Phish fan community of old (think: 90s). And while it is fantastic that a lot of that community is speaking out about this, I fear that a lot of people will still find the video 'high-larious' and think they can score 'h3tty' points by doing the same. Because that's all it's about for a large percentage of the fanbase - looking cool to others. Look back at pictures and videos (I'm thinking specifically of the Rift promotional video) and you'll see very quickly that NOBODY looked cool then, or cared whether or not they did. It was always about the music, first and foremost, the live experience. THAT was the community. Now it's about "cred," as you said, and who can bitch and moan the most. It's not 'custies' vs. 'noobs', because either one can fit in either scene.

Community = about the music, about the experience, about the band, about each other
Fanbase = about themselves, about looking cool, about making the funniest 2nd post, about who can find the newest way to insult one another and talk about the reasons why the band currently 'sucks'.

Ok, just my 2� ... getting off my soapbox now.

I think this "Cred" you speak of is by far the biggest problem in all aspects of our lives. You can't get a good loan without cred, sure as well won't get hired without a laundry list of your past accreditation. People are always on guard worrying about what proves their worth or what could discredit them. We rely on someone's word rather than see things for ourselves. Instead of keeping the video to between friends, the cameraman decided the world could get a laugh at this guy if given a window into our world. Anyone from outside our Phamily watching that video wouldn't be able to understand the true positives and negatives of such a thing. When they view it the guy is an over indulgent law-breaker, off his rocker at a "The Phish" concert. When we view it we think of the douche that would put such a video on Youtube and the possible troubles that could potentially return to the man on the screen. The scene has more positives than negatives, and we must always remember that we will always have undesirables to weed out.

@PYITE
Have you ever had an experience at a concert that made you feel more at home or a part of something bigger than yourself and your generation? Was it more than when you had that feeling at your confirmation or what have you?

well said. it really is bullshit that it was put up. everyone gets down at shows and has deep moments (with substances and without). really really inconsiderate and stupid.

My point of view at this moment in time after reading some of these post's is that the thing that helped make us such a fast growing close nit community in the Nineties is bringing us down in this decade, technology. tune out drop in and avoid East Coast shows is my advice, as a Philly native it kills me to say that, but from what I read it sounds like the East Coast scene is overrun with wanna be's, haters and kids that don't get it. Closest one I've hit since '03 was Star Lake in 2009 (or whatever they call it now), but what do I know. COLORADO LABOR DAY WEEKEND!!!

@A_Train How do you possibly have the take-away that this is anything to do with East Coast or West Coast. Ridiculous. And technology is not ruining anything at all. If anything, it's improving and enhancing it. Three things that really ruin experiences are inconsideration, selfishness, and stupidity. Those three have been around far longer than cell phones and exist in every state in the country- including Colorado.

@tmwsiy, your comment I think is why I am so turned off by the online community in general. you can't express an opinion without someone having the exact opposite or trying to act like your opinion is invalid. just my $.02...

I find it hilarious that there is an anti-technology thread...wait for it...on the Internet.

In light of these requests Phish.net will began engraving setlists from granite tablets, during the show. Please bear with us and the noise as we hammer out all of the show notes so as to provide accurate information as quickly as possible*

*please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. Shipping and handling not included. Delivery outside the 48 contiguous states will incur additional costs. Sorry Canada!

[/scene]

@A_Train said:

@tmwsiy, your comment I think is why I am so turned off by the online community in general. you can't express an opinion without someone having the exact opposite or trying to act like your opinion is invalid. just my $.02...

We are robots. We are all programmed to think the same way, resistance is futile. Hetty, brah. Hetty, brah. Hetty, brah.

ok, so I as I am not hated on I just want to say that I don't hate technology and I love phish.net for everything they do. the point I think I meant was that people are now abusing technology, and it sucks you can't let go at a phish show anymore or anywhere else for that matter. I also love the East Coast, just got back from Philly this morning on the early flight with my 8 year old son, after being there on a family emergency, so no disrespect to the East Coast, but I do personally now enjoy the Western Mellow Vibe at this point in my show going career. And lastly if not for family obligations i would love to attend more East Coast shows. peace, love and music to aLL!!

@A_Train said:

but from what I read it sounds like the East Coast scene is overrun with wanna be's, haters and kids that don't get it.

More judging. No different than railing on "wooks". You people over here, you're not welcome in our inclusive idealistic society. You don't get it.

I see this discussion has continued to descend into territory far, far away from the original topic. I don't know why this bothers me so much. Perhaps it's because the tenor of this debate has devolved into something I generally don't associate with our scene: pettiness.

A handful of participants in this discussion have hijacked this thread and not one of them seems content unless they have the last word*.

To this, I offer a solution: Meet up at a show and hash this out in person. I find that face-to-face encounters are rarely as venomous as they are on the semi-anonymous (and certainly less personal) Internet.

Of course, you could continue this sad and somewhat masterbaitory debate where you continually quote and pick apart each other's increasingly off-topic and childish posts. That's another option.

*Not me, of course. That would be hypocritical.

@ericwyman said:

@A_Train said:

but from what I read it sounds like the East Coast scene is overrun with wanna be's, haters and kids that don't get it.

More judging. No different than railing on "wooks". You people over here, you're not welcome in our inclusive idealistic society. You don't get it.

dude, like i said it was how i felt at that moment in time from what i've read on-line. i'm no expert on the current affairs of the phish scene and am still a little bit of a wook. i'm also no technology or internet etiquette expert ,you don't know me so please don't tell me i don't get it. i am all about the music and most of my best friends i met on phish tour. seriously, who cares what happens in the lot, in the audience, or online. it's all about what happens on stage. that's why i love phish.net , because it's all about the music!

@fazzy

I, for one, am simply involved in a discussion. I'm not gonna apologize if you don't like the content or the tone.

Highjacked thread, hardly. The original discussion may have revolved around the youtube video but as with most discussions it has transformed.

@A_Train said:

i'm also no technology or internet etiquette expert ,you don't know me so please don't tell me i don't get it.

That was misconstrued due to poor formatting. It was intended as a hypothetical statement to illustrate my point. One that I will reinforce by noting that most people don't like others saying "they don't get it", when they know nothing about them.

@ericwyman said:

@fazzy

I, for one, am simply involved in a discussion. I'm not gonna apologize if you don't like the content or the tone.

Highjacked thread, hardly. The original discussion may have revolved around the youtube video but as with most discussions it has transformed.

I think it was a wise wookie who said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

@ericwyman said:

@A_Train said:

i'm also no technology or internet etiquette expert ,you don't know me so please don't tell me i don't get it.

That was misconstrued due to poor formatting. It was intended as a hypothetical statement to illustrate my point. One that I will reinforce by noting that most people don't like others saying "they don't get it", when they know nothing about them.

True that, I got it when I read through it again. I guess by the people that I meant that "didn't get it" were the ones that everybody keeps complaining about that overrun the lawn and are just there to get wasted and talk talk talk, but to each their own. I do hate all the video taping of people though, I can remember many times in the late nineties when kids would get schooled hard for video taping other kids.

@fazzy

Wherein I am not involved in a discussion or I haven't highjacked the thread? Or even there was no thread about a YouTube video?

@fazzy

But if perchance you are referring to my needing the last word, well, I don't believe I've denied that.

@PYITE

I don't think you got the joke. Which is okay. It's, like, 400 years old.

Looks like you guys are making up, though. My work here is done.

See you in Tahoe!

Not looking for the last word here, and the very next time I'm at a show... and things get just right... I'll hopefully have surrendered again anyway. There's a cost no matter how you slice it. I'm buying, bringing the golden rule, and so on.

The more videos I watch on YouTube, the more I see a bunch of douche nozzles that are at a PHiSH show for no reason other than to either look cool, and/or get fucked up. Makes me fucking sick...

Can I live while I'm young....????!!!???????

i guess my understanding of the "scene" is shared by some not all. that's not suprising. what is suprising is the the thought process that the ability to do something implies a requirement to do it. and because its legal its ok? no, it's not. posting a comic (or really any)clip where the subject(s) is/are in agreement with the posting is fine. posting a clip that is potentially damaging to someone's reputation (without there permission) is only malacious. if one is trying to make a point about the harmfulness (or whatever) of pschoactive materials than block/distort the subjects face. i've been part of the jam band community for 34 years and love it, and one of the main reasons is simple, we are accepting, not exclusive, and we want everyone to be themselves, and feel confortable doing it, of course, as long as no harm comes to others. so if this guy (?) was "lost" help him if he needed it, otherwise let her (?) be, and ENJOY THE SHOW!!! good music, good vibes, much more to look forward too!!!

@ericwyman said:

I find it hilarious that there is an anti-technology thread...wait for it...on the Internet.

In light of these requests Phish.net will began engraving setlists from granite tablets, during the show. Please bear with us and the noise as we hammer out all of the show notes so as to provide accurate information as quickly as possible*

*please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. Shipping and handling not included. Delivery outside the 48 contiguous states will incur additional costs. Sorry Canada!

[/scene]

Well, I've been guilty of some of the "anti-technology" comments, so I'll respond to this, which I feel is a classic case of reducing the argument to an absurdity. (funny, though) Of course the internet/technology has a really positive role to play in the scene/community. But would you not admit that there is a downside? Like, why do there need to be thousands of people filming the shows on their phones, distracting those behind and around them, capturing crappy video and worse audio, when beautiful audio recordings of the whole thing will be available within hours of the show ending, and professionally filmed videos from the band released the next day? Or thousands of people tweeting and texting through the concert when it only takes a few to provide the much loved services that Phish.net provides?

Someone writing the setlist on their phone and sending it out is great. But I've been next to people who spent the ENTIRE SHOW with that little screen in their face, tapping away. The lack of attention from these people in the audience, in my opinion, is a drag to those around them, and therefore to the entire show.

For me, this discussion came around to talking about this stuff because, for me, the video in question symbolized the misplaced attention many in the audience seem to have, focusing on things other than the music.

I have a bone to pick with the original author of this post.
While I completely agree with the sentiment, about how it is not cool to videotape other people, and embarrass them via the internet, I would like to point out one thing...

Chris writes:
"What if the man's employer happened to watch the video? What if the man's significant other, or even children, happened to watch the video?"

I do concur, bosses, managers, owners, et al. should have no business knowing what you do on your free time, but I do take exception to the other half of that statement.
If you put your family, personal relationships, and most importantly children, in serious jeopardy by altering your consciousness at a rock concert, maybe it's time you seriously reconsidered your responsibilities, and straightened out your priorities. But to each is own.

One love

@WaxBrain said:

Well said.
The Modern Age is one of lots of animosity and the acme of the old "Holier Than Thou" bullshit.....it's lame. But we're Phisheads, we're supposed to be "different". Lets act like it!
C'mon Phans, dont hate on each other. That's lame. That's for old crusties to do.
If some jaded head is giving you shit, walk away. If some noob is crossing the "line", walk away. We're there for the music anyway, right?????
Have some fun on Leg II y'all, wish I could go!

i like your style waxbrain. just wanted to add, as so many others have, we are there to have fun. i have only been to three shows (i started in camden 2010), but I fell in love with the community right away, and instantly felt like a part of it! It's a shame some people dont have respect for each other within our own community. I've met lots of great people at these shows, and I'm sure on leg II ill meet even more. Let's keep the vibes good.
Also, thanks to everyone for welcoming me into the community, and I cant wait to do what everyone did for me when i meet a new phan.
-Ryan

Something's in the air with this. Yesterday, an Apple store was raided by the Secret Service because an artist had installed software on laptops which took photos of customers which were posted on the artist's blog.

http://wapo.st/pjr3mr />
He wasn't charged with invasions of privacy but with computer hacking (using computer in excess of authorization, same thing that the Wiseguy Ticketmaster hackers were charged with, ironically).

HAROLD OF THE ROCKS!!!

I agree with a few of the comments that...if you are in a PUBLIC place, then u better be prepared to be responsible...if you dont want anyone seeing you making a fool of yourself or whatever, then think before your actions...

Wait there was a video of some dude at a concert on drugs??? NO WAY?!?!?!.....sarcasm.....who gives a FUCK?.

@ericwyman said:

I find it hilarious that there is an anti-technology thread...wait for it...on the Internet.

[/scene]

Talk about a straw man. This is not an "anti-technology thread." Stop trying to derail and misdirect the discussion. It's a thread about ethics and community. Technology is at most peripheral here.

@SymphonicDelight said:

I have a bone to pick with the original author of this post.
While I completely agree with the sentiment, about how it is not cool to videotape other people, and embarrass them via the internet, I would like to point out one thing...

Chris writes:
"What if the man's employer happened to watch the video? What if the man's significant other, or even children, happened to watch the video?"

I do concur, bosses, managers, owners, et al. should have no business knowing what you do on your free time, but I do take exception to the other half of that statement.
If you put your family, personal relationships, and most importantly children, in serious jeopardy by altering your consciousness at a rock concert, maybe it's time you seriously reconsidered your responsibilities, and straightened out your priorities. But to each is own.

One love

I don't think that we disagree. I am not advocating getting blasted on psychedelics and freaking in public places. But parents and professionals etc. have been altering their consciousness from time immemorial without jeopardizing those priorities, and arguably while bettering themselves. We're not talking about crack or meth here.

The only thing new under the sun is the trend toward voyeuristic capture and dissemination into a world that may not understand and may not have sympathy. All I am asking is that people pause and consider the possible repercussions of their decisions. Not a very controversial thought.

@RunawayJim said:

@robbiephan said:

because i would be fired for being caught dancing like that. looking like im tripping, whether i am or not, would not be tolerated in my workplace. if phish isnt a place to be free and enjoy yourself (responsibly i might add) then where is?

You'd get fired for enjoying yourself clean and sober outside of work, not representing your job just because you dance at a concert? I hope I never have a job like that (in fact, I know I won't).

Phish is a place to be free and enjoy yourself. No one is stopping you. But if you're that worried about a video of you just dancing being put on the web, maybe you should only dance to Phish in the privacy of your own home.

@RunawayJim - Jim, have you ever considered anyone other than yourself? I thought we were all about inclusion? Try and put yourself in someone else's shoes. If you're able to, once you're there, you might start to feel something called compassion, but most likely not. Fortunately for you, you won't need those skills in any of the jobs that you will have. I guess that means that you'll be good. Unfortunately, for the rest of the community, we will continue to have people that benefit from the empathy and compassion of the majority while giving a bad name to them through selfish and heartless behaviour. Let love rule.

@bertoletdown said:

@ericwyman said:

I find it hilarious that there is an anti-technology thread...wait for it...on the Internet.

[/scene]

Talk about a straw man. This is not an "anti-technology thread." Stop trying to derail and misdirect the discussion. It's a thread about ethics and community. Technology is at most peripheral here.

It's hardly a straw-man when based upon humor. And I disagree with this notion that any topic discussed that isn't part and parcel to the original thought is suddenly derailment.

Commenters wanted to wax poetic about what is and isn't acceptable behavior and activity during a show. Whether peripheral or not, some of that focused on the proliferation of electronic devices. I think it's hypocritical to say that being far far off in the depths of your psyche is somehow more in tune with the show than posting a tweet. Having that secondary discussion is hardly off-topic.

Ethics, community, fine. But this thread was about drugs, then technology. It's got shit to do with the guy's actions in the video. It's got everything to do with the assumption that he had ingested a hallucinogen and what those not embracing of the "let your freak flag fly" mantra might think about it since it was so easily shared through technology.

Very well said my friend. As you alluded to in your piece, Phish shows are incomparably cool because they offer an escape from the politics and the social bullshit that permeate mainstream society. The Phish community provides a safe haven from hate, judgement, and mockery, where we are free to be individuals and to form our own unique connections with the music. I saw my first Phish show this summer, and have never felt more welcomed and accepted than I did as I walked through the crowd that night exchanging huge grins and high fives with all who passed. Music's greatest power is in its ability to not only bring people together but to transcend the superficial "games" to which countless human beings today are slaves. This video is just another "game", a 15 minutes of fame gimmick that may very well wreak havoc upon the life of its subject.

Plus, didn't this guy miss some music while he was screwing around with his camera?

@WaxBrain said:

Well said.
The Modern Age is one of lots of animosity and the acme of the old "Holier Than Thou" bullshit.....it's lame. But we're Phisheads, we're supposed to be "different". Lets act like it!
C'mon Phans, dont hate on each other. That's lame. That's for old crusties to do.
If some jaded head is giving you shit, walk away. If some noob is crossing the "line", walk away. We're there for the music anyway, right?????
Have some fun on Leg II y'all, wish I could go!

well put brother...

It sucks, but this is what you have to deal with in this age. We all know about people who come to shows and seem to care less about the music than things going on around them. If those people have a camera then there is a chance stuff like this will happen. I have no problem "filming the community" but in the context of concert documentation. Filming the lot scene, any merch on sale in the lot, if there's people dressed up in costumes ,etc etc. But filming something with the mindset solely because you know people will ridicule the subject of the filming is wrong. But, keep in mind, its not every case, some times, its the people who view the video that start the negative train. I've been on hoodstream nights where there are more people talking about the people standing around the streamer than the music being played. It just comes with the turf, but when you have people trying to share the concert through the majesty of video, shit like this will happen all the time. You have to decide if you like the video availability, and having a band that really dosent care about utube vids for the most part, or if you'd rather have privacy.

I know exactly who. During some of my short video clips from my camera, I noticed him and he appeared in the corner. At the show I noticed him. I don't post my videos on you tube and I do not post anything that would include someone who appears to be in an altered state (if they even are) due to the very fact that employers, family, etc. could see. If it was me, I would not want it posted. So whoever did this needs to really re-think just exactly what a festival of this sort is all about. I've seen numerous people in altered states of conciousness and not once do I step in unless they are "freaking out" or if they are causing or about to cause harm to anyone else or themselves. This particular person was absolutely causing NO HARM AT ALL. It is a shame that someone would post this on You Tube. From my observation, the person was just really enjoying the music. He in "the zone". Ya know.

Real fans don't Youtube Phish fans.

Keep it underground!!!

I'm a dedicated spinner, and have been for years. I pray before every show that I do not end up on Youtube. Even though I am spinning during shows I CAN see what is going on around me. (for the most part, but obviously I can see only so far away) If i caught someone taping me I would stop and let them know I was not comfortable with it, and hopefully it would end there.

At the Greek last year, I was doing my thing and began hearing some young kids talking about my dancing. I let it go for a song and then I had had enough. I stopped, mid spin, facing them. Their eyes went wide when they realized I was not as "out there" as they had thought. I asked the sportscasters if they were done with the play by play so I could continue enjoying myself, and not have to find a new spot. They apologized and said it was only in good fun, and they liked how much fun I was having. I wasn't a bitch, and they weren't dicks, so that was the end of it. I hope it was a lesson learned for them and their young entourage. Thank goodness no taping was involved.

Am I supposed to stop doing what brings me so much happiness in fear of being ridiculed or taped? Hell no! Am I asking for it? Maybe, but I keep my faith that true fans understand and are happy that I'm enjoying myself and leave it at that.

Why don't the we all get together and start politely asking these video taping tourists to stop doing it when we catch it happening. Who knows, it just might put an end to it.

On a last note, to those who are not familiar with the act of spinning to get naturally high or reach that higher place: PLEASE do not stop spinners to tell them to stop or you might fall down, or get too dizzy. It's completely unnecessary and intruding.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts!

@babylemonade Hit the nail on the head. Exactly. On day two I was soooooo tired that I was basically passed out in my lawn chair. I'm sure someone probably thought I was "a little to far gone" . Well, I was. Day one nearly killed me. I had to walk 5 miles uphill through the town in the heat I'm disabled (legs specifically). But also I was in between two people passed out face down on the lawn (in good company). Of course we checked to make sure they were Ok. And they were. Maybe just tired like I was. I have to admit though, they were sleeping so deeply that some guys made a little glow stick chalk outline around them. It was funny and when they awoke, they thought it funny as well. Everybody dances to their own tune. I'm a terrible stumbling dancer so when I do, I'm sure people get a kick out it and maybe draw their own conclusions. But I don't care. When I see others doing similar. I just smile. I'm happy for them. They don't care either and they are enjoying themselves to the fullest. And that is what it's all about. There is nothing remotely normal at a Phish show and I like that. Take a line from the wise..."Sanity never came my way." and apply it! :-)

My two cents worth. (which, it now costs more to make a penny, so I hereby declare that all our $0.02 is now only worth $0.01420)

where can i see this video that ya'll speak of?

Serious You Tube vids are being posted of fans either being arrested or "in an altered state" clearly showing faces. Many from SB9 and other shows. This has to stop. If your at a show and you see someone with a camera doing this, I would have a serious talk with them. It's getting much worse and is going to really ruin shows for some and perhaps even ruins some of these peoples lives.

Filming other people acting shady at a Phish show breaks *la cosa nostra* code. This punk should be "dealt" with. Be Good Phamily.

2 years later... I could go on about how today's culture has continued to embrace recording people for your own popularity/gain and embrace laughing at others' expense but I'll leave that soapbox alone.

Anyways, apparently Justin Bieber was at Dicks last night according to Twitter. Somebody mentioned Trey in 03-04 and public celebrity figures compared to everyday folks and their privacy on the web, and I thought of this thread. I have no idea if Bieber was on anything or if he does that at all, but I'd like to think that if he were interested in recreating, a Phish show would be one place he could in public without getting his "heartthrob on drugs" picture taken, ending up on the news. Based on photos it looks like I was pretty close to him, and had no idea. I think that says something positive about the community. I hope he wasn't bothered by his fans, or people wanting to earn cred by getting a pic with/of him. I hope he surrendered to the flow and danced his ass off without caring whether anybody was recording him. A Phish show should be somewhere you can do that; for him or you or me or anybody else.