@waxbanks said:

@FACTSAREUSELESS said:

Fish is a better drummer than Hart or Kruetzman, only Lesh holds his own, I think.

it sure looks to me like fishman can do everything kreutzmann could do, and much much more besides. funnily enough, trey compares similarly to weir/garcia: one argument for trey's canonical status is that he can accomplish nearly as much on his own as those guys did together. (that said, his style is different enough from garcia's that this comparison's a little harder to make cleanly.)

i *think* fishman has a better touch than kreutzmann, plus better chops/ears/taste. but i'm very open to an argument that i'm not hearing all of what kreutzmann was up to. (christgau loved early dead, and dismissed both drummers as mediocrities. hmm.)

a bass note: mike gordon's a less original player than lesh, in no small part because his connection to rock bass in general is deeper and more fluent. he has never been a dilettante. and right now, for the first time, mike is arguably better than lesh has *ever* been.

FINALLY....someone who know what the fuck they're talking about.....
Yes, I think you are right on in your analysis. To answer an earlier question you posed, I find that when I listen to the Dead these days, I don't listen to much past '73, in fact I'm usually in '71-72. Pigpen added more to the band than rough tough-guy vocals. He was a musical influence, too. When he was around the band had an edge that they never really regained afterwards.

I think Cactus HAS indeed surpassed Lesh, but I really didn't want to say that 'cuz I have so much admiration for Phil. He was such a pioneer on the instrument (in the rock world, anyway), and is such an awesome guy. I think both Hart and Kreutzman are terrific drummers (I think Billy is slightly better), I just think that Fishman is OUTSTANDING. To your point on the one-drummer thing, I definitely think the Dead were much better with one drummer. That drummer was Kreutzman on the Europe '72 tour. When the Dead added Mickey, they gained power and lost subtlety. Jon Fishman has an incredible feel for rhythm and flow, and takes the lead at appropriate times. I like Kreutzman, too, though. In fact, check out Phish's show on 8/2/09, where Billy sits in on the 2nd set and aquits himself very well (especially on Undermind).

Trey is the best guitarist I've ever had the priviledge of studying, ever. I loved Jerry's playing (when he was conscious), but honestly, he could never hold a candle to Trey. Jerry was unique, yes, and I acknowledge he is much more lyrical than Trey in his style, while Trey is more percussive, but Trey goes places routinely that Jerry never touched. Jerry was magical in his own way....any '72 era Dark Star trumps any Phish jam I've ever heard. Well, that's not true, but it felt good to say it and it's close to true.

But Trey's playing actually brings me tears on a regular basis. He IS a Shaman, bertoletdown, truly.

Also, Page is FAR SUPERIOR a keyboardist than anyone the Dead ever had. He makes Mydland's playing seem very pedestrian by comparison. In fact, as great as the other three are in the band, I believe it's Page that really sets Fish apart and on another level. I've never heard another rock key player quite like him. His diversity is incredible.

ANYWAY.....I WILL GIVE KUDOS TO THE DEAD, WHOM I LOVE DEARLY, for the benefit of everyone who thinks I'm hating on Jerry and the gang....

I think Robert Hunter is a superior lyricist to Tom Marshall, and it's not close.
John Barlow, for that matter, is better.

Jerry was a better song writer than Trey, and it's not close.

The Dead blazed the trail, and for that they should always be revered.

THAT BEING SAID.....I have an interesting little game to play;
to answer scooterpie above......Scooter, you challenged me to substantiate my claim that Phish is far better and more talented than the Dead, well, here you go....

Take this forum, and apply all the same criticisms that Phish has to endure regulary to your favorite Dead concerts. I challenge you to write a review to ANY Dead show, from any era (apart from '72, which would fare quite well), using the same standards that the pros on this forum use. Such as: SETLISTS, TYPE 2 JAMMING, FLOW, TIGHTNESS, FLUBS, SET-KILLERS, ETC. I challenge you because the truth is that Phish is so damn good that they've spoiled us. They play an "average" show, and we rip 'em with a fine tooth comb, yet even on average nights, they surpass the performances of some the Dead's all-time classic shows.

I can name only five songs in the Dead's history that they consistently went Type II with:
Dark Star (which, by the way, has no peer)
Playing In the Band
The Other One
Truckin'
Eyes Of the World

Type II, by the way, that largely stopped after 1974. You don't see Type II afterwards, you really don't. In fact, you want to talk about the GREAT PEAK of '77 ???? Oh, you mean that tour where they played Estimated Prophet EVERY SINGLE FUCKING NIGHT?!
You mean THAT PEAK? Want to talk about the GREAT PEAK of '89?? You mean the age of 45 minute first sets?
Flow??? How about Ship of Fools in the middle of the 2nd set? Talk about set-killers. Show of Life is a timeless anthem compared to that dirge.

And tightness? Anyway, I'm starting to get fired up. No Deadhead who honestly listens to Phish for given period of time (I mean HONESTLY), can come to any conclusion other than Phish just plain brings the goods. The Dead were great, but musically not in the same class.

Phish has jammed almost every song in their repertoire at one time or another, the Dead never came close to that.

THANKFULLY, I never measured the Dead by the super-critical standards that a lot of Phish fans do their own band, which is why I'm always happy after a show. Never dissapointed. I still listen to and appreciate Jerry and Co. because I'm not measuring them by those standards. My whole point in all of this is shed light on the fact that I don't think Phish is properly appreciated.

Trey Anastasio is an absolute miracle. No-one of his stature has ever made such a complete recovery from substance abuse and gone back to such a high level, after coming so close to death. We must appreciate the significance of this. I DON'T WANT '97 TO EVER HAPPEN AGAIN. I'll take exquisitely played 14:00 minute Bowies over drugged-out 20 minute Pipers any day of the week. THAT'S WHY the boys are so happy these days....their friend is alive, smiling and on stage with them where he belongs.